Member training for May 4th 2026

In tonight’s training, we worked through the foundational principles of righteous government as understood by the natural law tradition and the Latter-day Saint theological framework, drawing on thinkers like Samuel Pufendorf, Algernon Sidney, and Johannes Althusius alongside scriptural texts from Exodus, Doctrine and Covenants 121, and Daniel to establish that civil government is an ordinance of God instituted for a specific and limited purpose — the protection of persons and property from force and fraud — and not a mechanism for compelling virtue or redistributing wealth among the people. We examined what qualities Scripture and the natural law writers demand of magistrates: that they be able men, God-fearing, truthful, and free from covetousness — a standard that effectively disqualifies nearly every politician holding office today. The discussion touched on the dangerous nature of government as force rather than persuasion, the corruption that almost inevitably follows the acquisition of even small amounts of authority, and the way D&C 121 gives us both the diagnosis of that corruption and the remedy — that righteous influence can only be exercised through persuasion, long-suffering, gentleness, and pure knowledge. Members of the fellowship contributed their own experiences, including firsthand testimony of election fraud and the stonewalling that followed when it was reported, which illustrated in a very concrete way just how deep the corruption runs. The core takeaway is that before we can expect righteous government in our communities or our nation, we must first learn to govern ourselves.

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TRANSCRIPT

Okay. Is that working? Yep. Perfect. Moving. Okay. So yeah,
that’s many to Cal plug. And then this is Puffendorf.
So he says, civil society arrives when many households recognizing that they cannot live safely
side by side without a common authority, unite under a single will to preserve peace and security.
So you have multiple heads of household uniting together and agreeing upon.
a certain set of rules that the whole of them are governed by.
And then in Manetagal, he says, government is an ordinance of God for the right ordering of
commonwealths. Commonwealths meaning the people.
And he says it’s an ordinance of God. A lot of people like to separate religion from politics,
and it’s common sense says otherwise.
Founding fathers understood this
because they read lots of these books like Monet to Cow.
Samuel Puvendorf on a certain discourse said, no matter how virtuous a legislature is or should be,
the proper and natural end of his laws is not to raise men to virtue. So it’s the role of the
government is not to make people more virtuous or better. Get them to be more kind
one to another. The end is to prevent citizens from doing each other some considerable harm,
whether in their persons or in their property. And with this aim to curb the external actions of
vice, which tend towards such wrong to the extent that society’s peace demands and permits.
So it’s to… Yes, Mark. Yes,
I think we can easily argue that his virtuous role would prevent injury and harm and violation of
property rights and so forth. So I think in that respect, his role of government,
proper role of government is virtuous.
Well, it’s not. Yes, that would be virtuous. But he’s saying the role of the government isn’t to
make the people virtuous. It’s to protect people from people. from other people that aren’t
virtuous right so i think he’s talking about other virtues we know what a great deal what they are
like sexual sins and things like that torture but but that that is also virtue i think what he’s
also talking about not
to harm to harm somebody is is cruel and vicious and tyranny and to protect their rights is
virtuous uh does that make sense or yeah so the government’s being virtuous but their job isn’t to
make others yeah to control other all the all the possible other ways of virtue so yeah you see
today all these um you know we need to raise taxes to help these poor people and they that’s not
the role of the government that’s the role of the people if they decide to be philanthropists
philanthropists yeah and they don’t have to be foreigners for that to be wrong right yeah
So this is
a very important thing. If it’s an ordinance of God and it’s designed to protect the people,
you want to make sure you have the right rulers.
And so what qualifies one to be a magistrate or what disqualifies him?
So in Exodus, Jethro giving counsel to Moses, he says,
So he’s not just saying get anyone that you find on the side of the street.
He says able men, so people that are responsible, such as fear God.
So even in the Israelites’ time, it was probably hard to find someone that feared God.
Men of truth. hating covetousness.
So he’s saying you need at least these qualities to have rulers over the people, at least at this
time.
And Algernon Sidney says, magistrates are distinguished from other men by the power with which the
law invests them for the public good. He that cannot or will not procure that good destroys his own
being and becomes like to other men.
So he’s saying magistrates are especially designed for a specific purpose,
and when he cannot or won’t care to resolve his duty,
he destroys his own being, and
becomes like to other men.
All is neglected and violated if they are not put into the hands of such as excel in all manner of
virtues, for they are only worthy of them, and they only can have a right who are worthy.
because they only can perform the end for which they are instituted.
So he’s saying you, it’s not, you don’t just, again,
you don’t just put it into the hands of some random person, some guy you find on the street. He
says, excel in all manner of virtues. They only are worthy of them.
Yeah.
I just wanted to point out
when there was a time when Joseph Smith was running for president.
And I remember a quote that I’ve shared a lot over the years from him around that time was that we
should vote for a worthy rather than an unworthy candidate. Even if it means throwing away our
votes, because if we vote for somebody else just because they’re the lesser of two evils or
whatever, then the way he phrased it was we are putting into their hands the weapon that they will
turn around and use to destroy us. Right. You’re giving them the power. to ruin your life and make
your life hell and we i think we’ve seen that over the years yeah you don’t elect someone who’s
children of hell as they are nowadays anyway uh mark second
i think it’s important to put this to memory because this is as anti-democracy as you can get you
cannot uh just in democracy you can elect whoever the 51 of the majority or more want well here
you’re saying no that’s not that’s not acceptable if they’re not they don’t have these virtues you
just cited or the the verse uh sites does
that make sense or you just agree or disagree yeah i agree can
i raise my hand or do i need to you may
I personally haven’t voted since I was involved in 2018 in the election,
and I was an election judge, and I saw right in front of my eyes the person who was in charge of
the election. I saw him steal votes from the voting ballot box.
That’s the last time. 2018 is when I voted. Because I said to myself, I don’t want it on my
conscience and have to answer to my maker as to why I voted even for the lesser of the evils.
And I just won’t, you know, I won’t do that.
Yeah, if you had to choose between the devil and one of his minions, I still wouldn’t vote for the
minion. Yeah.
Okay.
And then again, he says, the law of every institute of power is to accomplish the end of its
institution as creatures are to do the will of their creator. So he says the law or the rule of
every organization is to accomplish the end of its institution.
It’s pretty simple. So if you made an organization to mow people’s lawns,
I should hope it would accomplish that end. And he says, as creatures are to do the will of their
creator. So he says, just as someone making an organization to mow people’s lawns for them is like
all the creatures of the earth are to do the will of their creator.
They were made for this purpose.
And in deflecting from it, they overthrow their own being.
And Menetikali says, the end or ends of this great ordinance called… government is the glory of
God and the good of the people. So we just looked at what if an ordinance or if an organization is
instituted for a specific purpose, it would hopefully accomplish that purpose.
He says the purpose of government is to glory, glorify God and create good for the people.
This nation is terribly wicked.
There’s nothing glorifying God. There’s nothing good for the people. You see iniquity and hell
everywhere. Yes, Mark? Yes, that’s the big debate of what is good for the people.
Because the socialists, the tyrants, they all have rationalization of what’s good for the people.
Well, if you glorify God, it wouldn’t be so hard to do good for the people. Right, because you have
God’s law and God’s statements and so forth. Right. So that’s… That’s the governor,
so to speak. But we have to get into great detail. According to what glorifies God,
what is the good of the people? And it’s certainly not what’s good for most people is not
necessarily good for the people. Well,
you’re not just doing something good for someone. Like we said earlier,
it’s not too…
You’re not benefiting others by giving to them or by providing for them.
That’s not what government’s for. That’s for the people to do for the other people. The role of the
government is only to protect the people from those who are harming them. It’s defensive. And that
results in the right to liberty, which God said, where there’s liberty,
there’s where I’ll be. So that’s a good starting point, the right to life. And then the right to
liberty, which includes the right to property and all other derived rights, which is the basic
political policy of our country was founded on by our founders.
Yes.
Then he says magistrates are the ministers of God or his servants. Now a servant honoreth his
master and they being by their office servants of God are bound in their several places to seek how
they may honor and glorify him. Just some months ago, I heard that.
Christians can be refrained from serving on a jury because they’re biased against sodomites.
They’re refraining Christians from even being of service to the people,
let alone only as servants of God in the offices of the government.
Algernon Sidney again, he says, He is only fit to conduct a ship who understands the art of a
pilot. So if you want someone to sail you across the Atlantic Ocean,
I don’t think you’d get someone who knew
nothing about ship sailing. He says he’s only fit to conduct a ship who understands the art of a
pilot. Obviously, you’re going to want someone who knows what they’re doing. He only can,
according to the rules of nature, be advanced to the dignities of the world. who excels in the
virtues required for the performance of the duties annexed to them, for he only can answer the end
of this institution. So again, like earlier, he says, just like only a pilot can sail a ship,
only those with true virtues can run the government,
can rule the people. And he goes through in Manetakal how Rulers are not necessarily rulers.
He says the greatest of all is the servant of all, or he references that scripture.
And he shows through other scriptures how magistrates and officers are only to be servants as
they’re serving in the government.
Hold on. Yes, Mark. I wanted to go back to your point about you can’t serve on a jury or that one
instance for being biased against sodomites. So we always need to look at everything in politics
concerning government in principle. So if you could actually harm somebody’s civil rights,
which it is a civil right to serve on a jury over this matter, you can harm them to any degree.
in principle you can you can call them a terrorist next week and and you know one of the
punishments for terrorists is execution or imprisonment certainly imprisonment so the principle
that you can harm somebody for uh standing for god’s law in that respect can be carried all the way
to harming them to the ultimate degree but which is death in principle yeah
So next I wanted to look at the danger of government and its relation to us.
So we all know this quote. Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.
Samuel Prufendorf in his discourse again, he says, The laws do not take the path of the heart. They
do not work to persuade, nor do they reason. Rather,
they command. They forbid. They intimidate. they threaten. He who does such and such thing will be
punished in such a manner. So he’s relating how if you’re just following the laws
and you’re not, like we have in the New Testament,
they always make the point of the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, or at least that’s
how people talk about that a lot. So he’s saying, if you’re just going off of the word,
there’s no justice, there’s no um leniency if this happens you this is going to happen and that’s
it it’s kind of the same with natural law too because if you throw a ball up in the air gravity is
going to pull it down
but um even in that sense you could throw it up in the space and it wouldn’t have anywhere to fall
to oh whoops uh yes uh rod
I was just going to say, you know, that’s one of the problems that we have today. There’s nothing
to deter people from committing crimes because we don’t punish them. You know what I mean? When it
happens, it’s barely a punishment. Yeah. You don’t want to.
You don’t want to. There’s there’s a point to the to the letter of the law. But yeah,
he’s saying if you’re just going off the letter, then you are also
not committing justice. I don’t. I don’t know if you understand what I’m saying. Yeah, no, that’s
exactly right, because that’s true. The spirit of the law has to be taken into account. That’s like
saying you have to have a capital punishment for every murder, but then there’s been cases where
children murdered their parents who were sexually abusing them, right? And the jury let them off,
which they should have, right? So that’s letting the spirit of the law override the letter of the
law, which is the way it should be. Because the letter of the law is how you get the spirit of the
law. Because people just want to not have any of the letter because they don’t want to be
restrained by anything. But you have to have both to actually be acceptable in the eyes of God.
Yeah, that’s a good point. Also, I think you turned off your slides. I’m just seeing the screen
with all of our little boxes. I’m sorry. I have a question.
Yes, Carmen.
Going back a couple of… of the points here of this lesson,
somebody said about when Christians are not allowed to serve on juries.
Does this mean, is that a fact right now or? Christians can be refrained from serving on juries.
So if there was a Christian as a defendant against somebody who is
who is a franny, is that what we call them or whatever, does that mean they can pack the jury with
all transvestites and sodomites and therefore the Christian is not allowed to have anybody in the
jury who is a Christian to defend him? I don’t know if I said that right.
I just question, is that a possibility right now that a jury can be packed with sodomites and the
Christian not have anybody who is a Christian on the jury?
They can put whomever they want onto the jury.
And they can keep Christians from the jury? They can keep whomever they want also.
And I would say if you lived in an area like San Francisco where it’s a high… population and
they’re quote unquote getting your peers. It’s just going to be random people. And just like Moses
said, they, they actually have the leeway to ask people questions. And if they hear anything that
sounds like they’re not going to vote the way they want or whatever, then they can exclude them
from the jury.
Mark, you had your hand raised. Yeah. First point is that describing that employee.
process i think it’s called where the both the attorneys the defending attorney and the prosecuting
attorney uh can interview and then to some extent they can chip choose uh who’s going to be on the
jury so one can uh veto the other to some extent but what we’re talking about here is godly virtues
and laws and so they they start with one law one That’s not acceptable,
like you must accept homosexuality and so forth. And it just continues to go after another law of
God. But the big point I wanted to bring out is what you’re talking about right now, Moses.
We heard that line, that adage over and over again, the art of politics is the art of compromise.
And that’s the antithesis of what you’re pointing out here, compromising. a law is no longer
justice and regarding children a law is different to some extent for children than it is for adults
for adult adults you holding to the letter of the law is extremely important and it’s also another
godly uh uh political principle it’s the first one uh in the in the declaration independence that
we’re all born equal and we have equal rights so That’s no longer an equal right when you’re
standing for godly principles.
But the bottom line to no compromise is you’re compromising justice when you compromise the godly
principles that you’re talking about. And that’s the bottom line to what government…
role is is justice and and limb limb very limited extent you know each each like in america they
have the federal assessed uh federal system uh justice is determined mostly should be by the states
and locally not by government but i i won’t continue i just wanted to make that point yeah thanks
um
ernie
went through that
He says, now note this well, whatever partakes of force is of itself incapable of winning over the
mind, and it follows of softening the heart. So if someone, this goes back to government is not
made to. compel someone to do good he says it is incapable of winning the mind or of softening the
heart so if you’re just the law is just to
again stop wicked people from committing that wickedness onto people who are innocent It says,
force does not enlighten its shocks. It may assist in holding a man to his duty, but force does not
incline him to practice his duty willingly and as a duty. When one is constrained only by fear,
one is all the more ready for a bold evasion, the instant that fear ceases or away his glimpse of
avoiding the effect of the threats.
So if you have, this goes back to you need virtuous people in government. You’re not,
you’re not.
electing someone who is just doing it for fear of the people you’re trying to someone who is a
father who knows that children are only compelled can only be compelled to do good if you you’re
telling your kids to um i’m not a father so i mean i have lots of younger brothers and sisters so
uh i guess you can see my folly in what I might say,
but you’re going to tell someone, one of the kids to do something and they’re like,
oh, I really don’t want to. And you’re just like, go do it because I said so. That’s,
they’re not doing it because they want to. They’re doing it because they’re afraid of getting a
punishment.
Yes, Mark. This is the most fundamental point of a proper role of government recovery.
No force. If you have force imposed on anybody,
you no longer have liberty, you have tyranny. The only time force is to be used,
it’s in response to somebody violating individual rights, which is force.
So as the principle of the ideology of the country is found upon, it can be boiled down into two
roles of government to prevent or to punish for someone using force against somebody else.
or others, or fraud. Fraud is when somebody injures somebody through deceit.
But that’s basically the government he’s talking about, and that’s the government our founding
fathers gave us. Otherwise, we no longer have liberty if you go beyond that. Yes,
he’s not saying to use no force, but he’s saying force doesn’t compel someone to be a good person.
You’re only forcing someone to stop in harming others. Right,
right. So that’s the role of government is to prevent that harm. Yeah.
And we go to DNC 121. And this is I think this is really significant.
I think it really shows you because government isn’t just civil.
It’s also it’s also familial or parental and it’s personal.
Those principles can be given through each of those things.
He says, Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. He says, There’s many called to do the
work of God or to be heirs of his kingdom, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world and aspire to the honors of men.
that they do not learn this one lesson, that the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected
with the powers of heaven, that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the
principles of righteousness. So we’re getting back to the set their hearts so much upon the things
of this world.
You’re not.
Yes, Mark. You’re also going back to the point made earlier. Do not choose people that covet.
which, of course, is one of the Ten Commandments. So you’re talking about do not choose people that
covet that which is not there, is it?
Yeah.
Going on, he says, When we undertake to cover our sins or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition,
or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men in any
degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves. The Spirit of the Lord is
grieved. And when it is withdrawn, amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
So he lays out right here basically
what makes the authority void of any man.
Covering your sins or gratifying your pride, vain ambition. So all these conspirators,
there’s no… I think you’d be…
hard-pressed to find anyone in government who does not fall under any of these categories.
But we’re supposed to start it ourselves.
So we’re supposed to follow these principles ourselves so that we might grow it out like a rough
stone rolling cut without hands.
We start in ourselves and then we start spreading that out to our family and then our community and
eventually to the whole world, as Daniel H. Wells said, I think.
We have learned by sad experience that is that is the nature and disposition of almost all men.
As soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise
unrighteous dominion. Hence, many are called, but few are chosen.
So he’s again relating like men are so forgetful and evil that as soon as they get a little bit of
authority, they immediately think to. Or almost immediately become corrupted.
This is the nature and disposition of almost all men. And that is why few are chosen.
You look at the days of Noah.
I’m pretty sure the whole earth was filled with inhabitants. And only eight people survived.
Only eight people were found worthy to be chosen.
No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood. only by
persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned, by kindness and
pure knowledge, reproving betimes with sharpness when moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and then
showing forth afterwards an increase of love towards him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem
thee to be his enemy, that he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.
So, Moses, go back again.
I would suggest, because eight seems like a really small number to put in that ark,
and only eight were saved. They weren’t counting the children. This is correct,
right?
Well, we don’t, at that point. It took him 40 years, I think that’s what it is said,
to build the ark. They would have had children in that time.
Isn’t it logical to think that in that day and age, they didn’t count children as adults for any
purpose, governmental or social or anything? It’s possible,
but they only count eight persons in the story. Yeah.
Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men. and to the household of faith and let
virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of the
of god and the doctrine of priesthood shall distill upon thy soul as the dues from heaven so
you’re not going to have any inspiration or any knowledge on how to work government unless you
learn to govern yourself first you don’t want the whole point of virtue in the in the in the rulers
is that they know how to govern themselves if they don’t know how to govern their own selves or
their own families how can they govern a whole nation
we must understand that government is an ordinance of god and understand what he has laid out as a
means of instituting it we must first understand government for ourselves meaning learning how to
govern ourselves and that’s all i have i guess it’s a little bit early sorry I’m not very good at
adjusting how many slides I need.
Mark. Yes, going back to that Exodus statement verse that you cited.
I mean, you eliminate almost all politicians just based on whether they’re telling the truth.
I would say all politicians. Yeah, well, you know, we say all, but the verses you’re reading,
they said few. And, you know, and they’re giving all what’s required of us to be leaders.
So if it’s all, then why even talk about a leader if you can’t be virtuous?
But, you know, we have to strive for that. And there are those who can be.
They were in Moses’ time. It’s possible in our time as corrupt as our culture.
culture is so we must strive to be that kind of person and it is possible it’s just that they’re
the word they you’re using here is few and because it would all was also being used as well well
all that are in government right now i would say are corrupt but that yeah that’s not to say that
no one is able to perform that in that um office but in fact noah i thought noah it was uh the
three six children or three and three uh the sons and and their wives i think that was what was
stated do you remember exactly but i think it was uh just uh uh it was either six children or three
children plus their their spouses that was like shim ham and japheth and their wives yeah yeah they
they only listed eight things
So does anyone have any questions about the presentation or anything else they would like to remark
about it?
This really brings up a lot of disconcerting feelings on my part just because of what I went
through and witnessed in 2018 as a, what did they call me?
a poll i wasn’t a poll watcher i was uh anyway um it was it i think that that was kind of uh
everything was building up to that what actually happened is that i quit voting uh but that was
like the final straw and these this one man that was in charge of the election um
Steve Wall, I do believe was his name.
He was, I mean, the nicest guy. He was just a wonderful person.
And he, you know, you couldn’t find any fault with him.
But if you tried, you probably could find it, obviously.
But all of the people. that were involved in that election that I met,
they were all just these wonderful people.
And who is fooling who?
You know, was every single person in that election, running for election or re-election,
were all of them just,
you know, they were deceivers and all that kind of stuff? Or were they innocent,
some of them, innocent themselves in what they knew and didn’t know?
So, you know, all of this discussion today has made this all come back to me.
And it is very uncomfortable. Very, very uncomfortable. Just to recall what I witnessed and what I
was involved in. Election judge. That’s what I was. I was an election judge.
So looking at myself back then when I knew nothing like I know now,
I was deceived, but I didn’t stay deceived.
I quit voting. There it is. Good job. Mark.
Yes, two responses, Carmen. First of all, just because there’s corruption at your poll.
doesn’t mean that somebody running is virtuous and worthy of your vote because they’re two
different things. Now, that corruption could lead to him not being or she not being elected and so
forth, but that doesn’t mean necessarily you shouldn’t be voting, although realistically there’s
hardly anybody that meets the standard that we’re setting here that the Bible sets,
that God sets. The other thing that’s really important, remember when the Antichrist comes,
certainly most christians or people themselves christians are going to be considering him to be the
nicest guy uh that that’s what we’re told and they will be fooled by him i mean they didn’t use the
word nice but you can just uh uh assume such uh that it’s implicit he’s going to be so so popular
and and talking just like christ so nicest should not be a much much of a criteria at all for who
we need to be voting for. We need virtuous people, as being discussed tonight.
Mark, let me tell you another piece of the story. What happened afterwards,
about three or four days after the election was held, I called the Attorney General Office in Salt
Lake City, and I kept escalating, and I didn’t want to speak with a…
low level person i wanted to go to the top i kept escalating so i finally got to like the assistant
to the eternal the uh attorney general and so this particular man that i talked to he said when i
told him the whole story he said all of the counties do it that way and i just you know i felt like
my jaw just slammed to the floor
because he himself admitted then i called the newspaper the next day and i talked to one of the one
of the reporters and they said no they didn’t want to get involved in that you know every place i
turned i think if i could have if i would have kept on seeking searching i think the lord would
have led me but i had been a member at that time i had been a member about maybe not more than two
years of uh but at that time depending utah and uh so i i think now had i continued and not given
up i have a feeling that the lord would have led me to somebody who would have been willing to take
that on so part of it’s my fault too because i didn’t push hard enough okay i’m done mark uh you
are first of all you you deserve to be praised for your fight for justice that’s what you were
doing but you also learned a lesson there about the level of corruption and the odds are you would
have found that corruption all the way to the very top uh which is the governor You know,
you’re from Utah. I’m from Utah as well. But I just came here a dozen years ago,
mainly California. And I’ve heard so many Utahns talk about, well, at least we’re not as corrupt or
we’re not as bad as California. In principle, Utah is just exactly as corrupt as California is.
The law hasn’t descended as far in some ways as it has in California.
But in principle, and and and morality of politicians it’s just at the same base level uh people
people need to learn uh learn that to think to think that they’re this corrupt and i i’m sure
you’re you know moses you know your dad knows that because he was working so hard to try to educate
people about uh the politicians here in utah but uh don’t think we’re any better off and certainly
in principle than california
Does anyone else have anything about the presentation?
Okay, I guess we’ll close.
Connelly, I don’t know if it’s Scott or Becky, would you say prayer?
Sure. Thanks.
Our dear Father in heaven, we are grateful for this night that we’ve had to gather together and to
hear Moses’ presentation on what it takes to have a righteous government and that it falls upon the
people. to be righteous themselves we ask thee to please bless us and guide us that we may be those
people and be examples to others around us we are grateful for all the many blessings that thou
gives us and we pray for these things in the name of jesus christ amen